Sunday, January 13, 2008

Sunny Sunday

Today at HUFFPO

WASHINGTON — The nation's intelligence chief says waterboarding "would be torture" if used against him or if someone under interrogation actually was taking water into his lungs.

But Mike McConnell, in a magazine interview, declined for legal reasons to say whether the technique categorically should be considered torture.

"If it ever is determined to be torture, there will be a huge penalty to be paid for anyone engaging in it," McConnell told The New Yorker, which published a 16,000-word article Sunday on the director of national intelligence.

The comments come as the House Intelligence Committee investigates the CIA's destruction of videotaped interrogations of two al-Qaida suspects. The tapes were made in 2002 and destroyed three years later, over fears they would leak. They depicted the use of "enhanced" interrogation techniques against two of the three men known to have been waterboarded by the CIA.


The mere fact that this topic of waterboarding is even debatable in the first place, screams of illegality, admitting to it's use by arguing for it.

We have been conditioned to accept violence as a fact of life somehow, and the end justifies the means.

Progress leading to profit at any cost. No wonder things are so messed up. It remains to be seen if we will support man's inhumanity to man or rebel against it an make progress lead to peace and generosity.

Meanwhile the torture issue must be addressed and standards applied equally, the Army manual defines this more than any other document. America used to be seen as a beacon on horizon for the oppressed, now we are the oppressors. It is unacceptable for us to continue promoting torture as an acceptable tool for interrogation.

Time to stop.



DEN said...

Carol, get a yahoo e-mail account, it's easy to set up and is always there(so far)

Detroit Auto Show this week and the Scottsdale Auto Auctions too, plenty of motorhead distractions for anyone who like cars. The auction market for cars should be down along with the rest of the economy, still cool to look at on line.

You know where the coffee is and the accessories.

Dig in!

Gerald said...

DEN, the belief that Nazi Americans are good, holy, and saintly people is shot to hell. Nazi Americans are actually evil, vile, and wicked persons.

"The bread in your cupboard belongs to the hungry; the coat hanging unused in your closet belongs to the one who needs it; the shoes rotting in your closet belong to the one who has no shoes; the money which you put in the bank belongs to the poor."
- St. Basil the Great

From the previous blog!

Everyone can think, even Hitler Bush. His thinking is stinking thinking. Even with stinking thinking, he is controlling the agenda and even the Democrats have caved into his demands.

Gerald said...

Hitler Bush is willing to damn his soul

Gerald said...

Nazi Israel wants someone else to do her dirty work and stupid Nazi America will do the dirty work.

º¿carol said...


Woo hoo! I checked this morning and it still wasn't working. Came in here to check after Stephanopolous and I'm back in business! Will go catch up with the mail.

º¿carol said...

Gerald, are you going to vote Tuesday? I can't make up my mind. E.J. Dionne said that Daily Kos is saying we should go vote repug, vote Mitt. Mitt??? Good grief!

What are you going to do?

carey said...

How do you enjoy the Detroit show Den? Can you see some of it on the computer? I ask naively.

Football Sunday, thank God, something fun to distract me. Love it when I'm happily distracted.

Regarding your important intro post Den, it just so happens I read the following yesterday and decided y'all might not be that interested, but actually, I think you will. I have followed Philip Agee since the early eighties, because his message reasonated. Especially since he was CIA in Latin America when all the naughty stuff was going on like what was investigated during Iran-Contra.

This is Tim Rutten, by the way.

TREASON AND TORTURE: A Spook's Faustian bargain

To those of us who met or covered Agee, his death brings all this forcefully to mind, because the only part of the rather malleable explanation he offered for his conduct that ever seemed intelligible -- or unambiguously credible -- was his revulsion against the CIA's complicity in torture. Note that word "complicity." Though he came to hate the agency with a traitor's ferocity, Agee never alleged that he or his CIA comrades tortured captives. It was bad enough, he would later say, that he had stood by while America's Latin American allies tortured their own people.

DEN said...

Detroit Auto Show @ FREEP right column, photo galleries.

2008 Lexus LF-A roadster


DEN said...

Corvette ZR1!

DEN said...

Russo & Steele

micki's proofreader said...

Carol -- Why don't you vote "uncommitted" if you don't want to vote for Clinton, Kucinich, Gravel, or Dodd (who has dropped out)?

Seems to me this is a fiasco, not only of the DNC's making, but Michigander politicos, too. Michigan just couldn't wait to get out there in front of the nation in the primary season! All this "me first" crapola is toxic and damaging to the system.

David B. Benson said...

I left a redundant message on yesterday's thread (forgetting it was yesterday's).


micki said...

Oh, I should have mentioned....Clinton, Kucinich, Gravel and Dodd are on the Michigan ballot.

micki said...

Life is redundant.

Gerald said...

Carol, since I am over 60 years of age, I can vote an absentee ballot. I voted for Hillary.

Both the Dems and the repugs have Uncommitted on the ballots.

The Uncommitted vote will be a big story if huge numbers vote Uncommitted.

I voted for Hillary because she is a known as opposed to an unknown. Her life has been an open book.

Gerald said...

If I was a repug, I would have a difficult time voting for Mitt. I would vote for a mormon woman who has never lived in Salt Lake City. The mormon woman from outside Salt Lake City do not seem to have agendas and issues in their lives.

Gerald said...

I have posted several articles on the Alternate Reality blogspot. If you have the time, please take a look.

Gerald said...

Be Joyful!

Even in the face of significant global problems as well as more personal ones, many people still realize that joy in life is both possible and worth cultivating.

Motivational speaker Chris Widener says, “Joy can be yours! Look for it, pursue it and enjoy it!” and offers seven tips:

Know your unique purpose in life and fulfill it

Live purposefully. Set priorities so you can act in accordance with what you know to be your purpose.

Stretch yourself. Expand your horizons. Don’t settle for the status quo.

Give more than you take. Being generous brings joy to self and others.

Surprise yourself and others. On occasion, do the unexpected.

Indulge yourself from time to time.

Laugh a little. No, a lot!

To this list, add your own personal notes of joy. When problems threaten to overwhelm you, joy is possible.

A joyful heart is life itself and rejoicing lengthens one’s life span. (Sirach 30:22)

Creator, please show us how to cultivate joy in our lives.



Gerald said...

Praying Each Day: January 13

I want to add that we may lose every battle fought against Hitler Bush but in the end it will be the war that is important. Winning the war means we will be with Jesus for all eternity. DO NOT CHOOSE A LIFE WITH HITLER BUSH!!!

miss manners said...

In case you had any doubts:

How to end your e-mails

Jeanne said...

Great, it sounds like Bush has a peace accord that will be ready just in time for the conventions. Wow! what timing.

Why do I not believe anything Bush says? Why do I think there is an agenda created that just begs for more problems? Oh why am I even asking the question? It's Bush!

Most significant of all, the new partnership deal with Iraq, including a status of forces agreement that would then replace the existing Security Council mandate authorizing the presence of the U.S.-led multinational forces in Iraq, will become a sworn obligation for the next president.

How pitiful.


Gerald said...

Thank God for Sundays

Gerald said...

The Surge of More Lies

Gerald said...

What are war crimes?

goofed up but good said...

Just managed to restore an important file, after having mucked it up.

Think I should just go out an enjoy the sunshine while it lasts.

Get my vitamin D...

carey said...

Hi Jeanne! I've come to similar conclusions, just hadn't thought about them as far as you.

Miss Manners,

I loved this, I've bookmarked it to study later.

Back to football.

micki said...

Jeanne and Den -- because of your posts today, when I ran into this, I thought of your comments:

In discussing Osama bin Laden, Mike McConnell said if the U.S. got a read on the al-Qaida's leader's precise location, it would not hesitate to cross the Pakistan border to capture or kill him.

"You cannot indiscriminately attack a sovereign nation," McConnell said, but said "we'll bring it to closure."

He says bin Laden is in the lawless region between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Jeanne, capturing or killing bin Laden is on the Repugs' agenda, too -- just in time for the elections, probably.

Or they'll just lie about it and say they captured him, in case he's already dead.

Whatever it takes. Or maybe they will capture bin Laden and torture him. For good measure. That'll show the world how tough bu$h is! They'll claim they got REALLY, REALLY good intel from torturing bin Laden. And people will cheer and feel safe and say, please continue with the torture -- and vote Rethuglican.

I'm kinda cynical.

micki said...

Yes, Miss Manners is quite interesting.

Now, what about a salutation in email?

What to do?


David B. Benson said...

Your tax-dollars at work

FBI agent faults counterterrorism work

not keeping you safe, but keeping a***s covered...

Jeanne said...

Unfortunately for the Repugs, people aren't too worried about bin Laden anymore. They are more concerned about their jobs, healthcare, the state of the environment, global warming, the price of fuel for transportation as well as heating the home and on and on. The amazing thing is they don't dwell on what could spur a renaissance. They dwell on fear. The republican party does not deserve to exist.

Jeanne said...

I watched The Client with my daughter last night. You could imagine the movie as a stereotype but the agency manages to prove time and again that the men in The Client do indeed exist. The story you linked reminded me of what the FBI can be in it's worst moments.

micki said...

I wonder if any member of the Culinary Workers Union Local 226 in Las Vegas will dare to vote counter to the union bosses. Hmmm. I doubt it.

With casinos set up as caucus sites for the convenience of dishwashers, bellhops, cocktail servers, and porters, it would seem to me that when they show up in their casino-issued work clothes which identifies them as a member of the local, they damn sure better support the candidate their leadership decided to endorse. It's all out in the open, in front of their co-workers, and union bosses.

I betcha a lot of people are gonna wish they had never agreed to attend the caucus on their work break. Oh, well.

micki said...


Unfortunately for the Repugs, people aren't too worried about bin Laden anymore.

Oh, but they have ways of changing the subject, thus changing people's minds. Wait and see.

David B. Benson said...

Micki --- I don't agree, from the attitude of the trade union members I know and have known. Very independent-minded lot.

But ask Alan. He's one.

Jeanne said...

I know, I know. They tell us about the "threats". I can't wait until someone writes about a book about the "threats". I want to know what was a real threat and what wasn't. It will become glaringly obvious when a democrat gets in. All the "threats" will disappear and it will be life as usual.

Gerald said...

On the Alternative Reality blogspot Adolph H. Bush has informed me that his operatives are reading my posts. They may also take some action against my person. The below post is my comment to Adolph H. Bush.

Adolph H. Bush, I am certain that your operatives are keeping track of my posts. I believe that my telephone calls have also been monitored until the FBI could not pay their wiretapping bills.

Adolph, according to my son's friend who read my book he says that my book put me on the enemy combatant list. I made the list through my words and my breaking of wind. Whenever Nazi Americans invite me to a function, I make certain that I have a marinated four bean salad that is chilled along with marinated broccoli and brussel sprouts also chilled. People have been known to pass out with one whiff of my wind. Some people have also been rushed to the hospital for observation.

Gerald said...

Today the real test of America's power and wisdom is not our capacity to make war but our capacity to prevent it.
– Dale Turner

Gerald said...

Anyone can start a war like chicken shit Hitler Bush!!!

David B. Benson said...

Unfortunately, there really are men (and occasionally women) who do intend serious harm.

Jeanne said...

Boy Gerald,
The Iraq war would be a whole new ballgame if we sent you to the front with you 4 bean salad.

Have you thought about getting involved with the Republican convention? I'd watch every televised minute if I knew you and your salad were going to be there.

Gerald said...

Hillary has come under attack for her failed national health care plan. At least Hillary tried back in 1993 to help Americans. When will Obama show us the beef or substance toward his nomination?

Nazi America is so pissed that a woman may be president that if she receives the nomination, they will be checking into a psychiatric center for a 72 hour assessment for their craziness.

David B. Benson said...

Gerald --- I am certainly glad you are a long way down-wind!


Gerald said...

Jeanne, I believe that the repugnant convention is in the Twin Cities of Minnesota. The area must be beautiful in the summer near all the great inland lakes.

Jeanne, if I was in better health, I would be more active. One of my problems is that I take a water pill and I must relieve myself every two hours or so. What is strange is that the pressure for relief comes on suddenly and if I am away from the restroom who knows what may transpire.

DBB, I always make certain that I face the westerly winds so the breaking of my wind heads straight toward the Nazis. As the wind leaves the launching pad, it leaves with much gusto toward the Nazis.

Gerald said...

Jeanne, regarding the Iraq war, I do not know if my breaking wind can compete with Hitler Bush's shit.

Jeanne said...

My youngest daughter goes to school in St. Paul close to the area where the convention is going to be. I'm sure they would love to use all the rentable housing for people involved with the convention. My daughter wouldn't let them near her place.

When the republicans come to town they always act so uncivil to Minnesotans. It's just ugly. They always have this superior attitude. They know that MN is going to remain civil regardless. We'll tolerate them and take their money. They got no good ideas. They don't think of the future. They're wasting my time.

almost out of brew said...

If I grew my own hops, I suppose I would need to grow my own barley (and whatever else) and learn to make beer.

Oh wait! I can sell the hops to the microbreweries!

A fortune! I can imagine it now...

carey said...

Oh my gosh, great blog. Everyone's been busy thinking. I've been football lounging. Well, not actually, more pacing than lounging for my team--they unexpectedly won.


Or maybe they will capture bin Laden and torture him. For good measure.

Perfect. Evil is as evil does to evil.

Or whatever. There I go again, doesn't make a whole heck alot of sense but it sounds good.

Grow your hops, you'll be rich and mildly buzzed.

micki said...

I don't agree, from the attitude of the trade union members I know and have known. Very independent-minded lot.

I've known and know quite a number, too. You're right, they are historically independent-minded. But, there is a lot of arm-twisting going on (as usual in politics) and terse *reminders* to the union caucus-goers that it's important to "stick together" on this.

I hope they remain independent-minded because I think it's a crock o' crapola that the Culinary Workers Union Local 226 has been singled out for preferential treatment, when Nevada Democratic Party pooh-bahs decided to set up caucus sites at hotels where Local 226 workers toil for their living.

I'm not suggesting for a nanosecond that the union workers shouldn't be able to participate in the process, but hey! lots of people work on Saturdays and can't participate. That's the breaks.

•c•arol said...

Gerald, I'm over 60, too, but it never occurred to me to get an absentee ballot. I'll probably never do that until I can't drive or something. Out here in the sticks I vote at a little township hall well over a hundred years old. There's never a wait more than a couple minutes.

I don't think I'm going to vote Tuesday. Even though the vote is private the law lets them give our names from primaries to the political parties. That pisses me off. I don't really care who gets the nomination. I'll vote for whoever is the Dem candidate.

micki said...


micki said...


...well, except to pollinate the female plants.

•c•arol said...

I got a political phone call last week! Cool! It was an automated voice that would ask a question and I was to answer yes, or no.

1) Do you think Bush has been a good president? NO!

2) Romney is rich, has his own money to run for office. Huckabee was the first guy in his family to go to college. Would that fact make you more inclined to vote for Huckabee? NOOOOOO!

Gosh, it was fun! I said all my noes WAY louder than necessary. Ha! Come on people, call me again! I LOVE that crap!

micki said...

We only have cell phones -- no land line any more -- so we don't get the political calls like we used to.

Thank gawd!

I make the political calls. I don't take them. hahaha

Carey said...

It's a strong, strong, strong hint for the culinary workers, in other words, Micki. I've never liked that when unions do that.

Yes, that's not good. I wonder if my ex is in that union, hmmm.

You can tell I've kept up today.

©¿©¬ said...

I've probably had three political calls in my life. That's probably why I'm always hoping I'll get a call. LOVE to spout off! Hard to do with the automated call though. *sigh*

Carey said...


I thought it would be great to be one of those polled too. It's never fun, ever. The interviewer doesn't understand the content or intent of the question so much so that the whole thing always ends up a twisted knot of misinterpretations. I cut myself off the lists. Tried anyway.

Carey said...

Did anybody read AR? It's a good intro post.

DEN said...

Good day here today folks, made a good dent in the condiments and drank all the coffee, and plenty of good conversation.

I ground the beans myself and stole the condiments off the bread truck.

Just try getting that at AR, they don't even have vending machines.


Carey said...

Seriously, Den. Read the Jan 13 intro post at AR from Truthout. It's good.

micki said...


Carey, I started to read the piece at AR, but I can't finish it before I hit the sack.

It would surely keep me awake!

Remind me to finish it! Yikes.

I bet you see some aspects of people you've known in the analysis, eh?